IPH - Institute of Hospital Research

Publications IPH Magazine IPH Magazine Nº 11 Interview with Architect Siegbert Zanettini

Interview with Architect Siegbert Zanettini IPH
On a beautiful sunny day, IPH's team had the pleasure to visit Zanettini at his office in Vila Olímpia to talk about the last 60 years in architecture, about architects' college education concerning hospital architecture and, of course, about his idea of how good architecture should be. Our talk lasted until the beginning of the afternoon and here we transcribe part of it to our readers.

IPH Magazine - Good morning Zanettini, thank you for receiving us. IPH is celebrating 60 years of activities and we would like to hear your opinion on how these 60 years of architecture in Brazil have been. You have followed this history as an architect and as an architect professor.

Zanettini -  What happened differently regarding work is that I also taught at FAU (The University of São Paulo's Architecture and Urbanism School) from 1964 to 2000. My professor career, from recently graduated to full Professorship, was developed at FAU. I got my doctorate degree in 1972, the Associate Professor title in 2000 and the full Professorship title in 2004. One by one, I accomplished every step and position, from director of department to member of the congregation. Besides the academic work, I have always designed architecture projects after and even before I graduated. When I was on my third year of graduation, I was already designing and working on building projects. Back then, FAU was unique at something: most of its professors came from Poli (the University of São Paulo's Engineering School) thus the engineering approach was really good; it used to be like a double graduation course, which we don't see today at the architecture schools. The Double Graduation course, which I coordinate, was only established at FAU in 2004. The architecture grad student takes part of the course at Poli and the engineering one at FAU. This education has broadened my knowledge and included some very important aspects into my career. Firstly for the attitude, which was central for my professional performance by introducing innovations that today have been embraced by the building practice, and most of them I launched. I was responsible for the first construction using toughened glass and epoxy; I designed panels for façades with no use; and I introduced the use of colors in hospital, which I began doing in 1961 for I cared about the lack of colors in hospitals. Karman had 58 years of activities in hospitals I have 53. Since my first hospital in 1961, I have built more than 50 hospitals, among many other projects. My office is hired to design high complexity projects, such as research, computing and other technologies centers. This approach that brings together architecture and engineering has allowed a theory on Brazilian contemporary architecture, which I mention in my book, that places architecture in integration with balance and harmony, sense and sensibility, which was the thesis I wrote for the Associate Professor public exams and that later was published as the book "Siegbert Zanettini: Arquitetura, Razão e Sensibilidade". 

There shouldn't be constructions without these two areas of expertise and, in the 21st century, without any of the scientific field of expertise: human, biologic, exact, environmental and economic sciences, which should be included in any project. One of these areas may receive more emphasis, but overall, they are all present when you approach architecture with a holistic and systemic point of view. In my opinion, nothing works independently. The approach is always global, never specific; I always see the parts as belonging to the whole. You can imagine the complexity of a project such as the Petrobras Research Center, Brazil's biggest research center and one of the biggest in the world that is home to thousands of scientists and 270 different laboratories. To design this project, which received national and international award, we must have from the start a very integrated understanding of all sciences; otherwise we incur substantial omissions that normally occur in the engineering and architecture business. The engineer and the architect perform their activities in isolation, rather than systematically. The engineer lacks humane, urbanistic, landscape and environmental approaches. The architect, on the other hand, lacks a better technical knowledge. I struggled all through my academic life to try to integrate these two courses, because I didn't consider them as separate things. Not only them. Consider Geography for na example. The best theses concerning urbanism were written by geographers. Among numberless inspirations, being acquainted with Aziz Ab'Saber's metabolic city and with Richard Langenbeck's approach, the latter with the best thesis concerning Great São Paulo's organization, was very important to my education. Knowing these other areas of expertise is fundamental to undertake a scientific manner when approaching certain issues without half true. Nowadays architecture does not rely on "beliefs", there is no room for finding the solution by trial and error and realizing afterwards if something does not work. In 50 years working in the field, I have never carried out a construction work without a thorough architecture Project. 

In the 1960's the Brazilian contemporary architecture began to wane and instead of being a cause, it became a style. The cubic architecture made with apparent concrete can still be seen in many projects, but it is no longer a solution for this complex and diverse century. To appraise the approach on what it is being done in a holistic and systemic manner, we must present a new attitude in which part of the whole explains the whole. The same thing happens in architecture. When I start a new project, I gather all specialties so we can define the concepts together, before developing them.

Siegbert Zanettini and Jarbas Karman, 2003, photo IPH's Archives.



I really empathized with Jarbas' broaden vision of architecture and we talked about it extensively. I attended all of his lectures and vice versa; we used to exchange ideas about the approach, not just as architects and engineers, but focusing on the big picture. In 2003, I received a special room at São Camilo's Hospital Fair (Feira Hospitalar - ADH'  São Camilo), Jarbas was there and we talked about the ideas exposed. It brought us together since our way of thinking was similar. The idea of designing a hospital that would last 50 years - which is how long it should be working flawlessly - used to be common sense. Just like the environmental, economic and social preventive point of view that is now called sustainability.  The design for the Vila Nova Cachoeirinha Maternity Hospital had all the elements of an innovative proposal. Since I did not design just for the hospital industry, I brought from other industries many solutions  that would work for hospitals, including the concern that nowadays is called sustainability and that in the 1970's I named it eco-efficient and bioenvironmental architecture. An attitude that I have carried throughout my activities as a professor and an architect and that earned me an international award two years ago, the number 1 entrepreneurship award: the "World Green Building Council 2012".

The 21st century is the century of sense and sensibility, of intellect and creation and it should present a different approach from the 20th century that was the century of production. In this century, scientific behavior is fundamental. Something that is already naturally happening in other countries is not happening in our architecture yet, which is about 50 years late. Examples: (i) My headquarters was the first building fully assembled in 1987. Three years ago, we decided to change its location, so we disassembled it and our intention was to set it up again in 15 days. However, City Hall's new clearance demands made it impossible. (ii) We are finishing the biggest hospital in Belo Horizonte, Mater Dei, which was assembled in two years. It has metallic structure and the seedbed is for assembling only. (iii) Enlarging Petrobras Research Center demands a project of fully industrialized conception, in which the quality control is made industrially. Petrobras has made a movie about Cenpes (the Research Center) that reveals the scientific and environmental cautions taken for this project and that are partially shown through the hydric and energetic balance adopted.
 
IPH Magazine - In your conception of architecture, the building is a sequence of assembles, which we also see on Jarbas and Lelé's work. However, we can spot differences, Jarbas used to defend the concept of horizontal hospital, which he was not always able to accomplish. Nowadays we have the discussion between horizontal or vertical hospital, modular and non-modular.

Zanettini - I wouldn't have a pre-determined idea, since each project has a story of its own. I don't agree with adopting a standard project that has been designed for one place and that later is reproduced somewhere else. Everything is different: soil, weather, solar orientation, flow of activities and needs. These are unique to each project and they demand proper solutions. 

It's the case of the Mater Dei Hospital, in Belo Horizonte, a 70 thousand squared meter building, the biggest hospital in Minas Gerais with high complexity and extensive flow of activities. The only way of building it was vertically. It wouldn't be feasible to have a horizontal hospital to serve to the World Cup and have 850 parking spots. We thought of a solution for an underground parking lot that would require 7 floors and cost 150 million reais at the time (about 390 million dollars); it became impracticable, especially since the terrain was all surrounded by extraordinary vegetation which we kept untouched. There was not even one tree cut down and the whole project respected the local requirements, such as uneven levels with different parts in all the routes surrounding the hospital allowing the entrance through different levels: oncology, ER, hospital main entrance, services access and parking lot. In another project with similar size, the Maternity Hospital São Luiz Anália Franco, we had to change the site.  The hospital transformed its surroundings into a square. This holistic and systemic architecture's point of view defines the concept with the client, considers the engineering, disciplines and systems that are part of it. From there needs arise. To build Petrobras Research Center, we put together a team of 30 different companies to discuss the project. It is not just a matter of shape, as it is of a big set of needs: there was a pipe rack of installations, a space 11 X 9 meters long, and each laboratory would receive a specific type of research: one for producing energy with castor oil plant, the other with hydrogen or sugar cane. These are clean energy researches that demand their own customized laboratories. There are 270 different laboratories, all of them equipped with systems that must be reorganized according to the type of research. Once a research is over, another one takes place and only the layouts change, for the systems must serve all laboratories. The pipe rack serves projects in several specialties, even 3D images. It's easy to imagine what happens to a project of this type that is not just about the shape, but changes according to each function it receives. This attitude was very important to the way I practice my profession, especially concerning high complexity projects. I don't design apartments, but when asked about how much time I take to do it I say: about 3 minutes to define the space for the suites, bedrooms, living rooms that can turn into offices, laundry and bathrooms.

IPH Magazine - About the Petrobras Research Center, Jarbas used to talk a lot about the technical floor, whilst you mention laboratories' pipe rack. Would that space be the technical floor that allows more flexibility?

Zanettini - In the 1980's we began to run into each other in hospital-related events, until then it was rather unusual to exchange experiences, there was no dialogue; the fairs made them possible. Usually, it takes several meetings before starting designing a hospital. We are now working on the University Hospital renovation and before anything we met with doctors, the board, responsible staff and doctors from each sector about one hundred, which allowed us to undertake a thorough renovation of the hospital. I need to know the workflow, the needs and peculiarities of this hospital, which in this case is also a place of teaching that the student attend. A building must work well for 50 years, Brazilian buildings last between three and four years because they lack technology and scientific knowledge. If we just focus on the shape, we will neglect everything else that is fundamental. The sooner these issues arise, more quality the project gains, not only concerning architecture, but also engineering. For the Petrobras project, instead of placing the lamps in the center of the room, we placed them paralleled to the natural light that comes inside through openings distributed in such a way that the light comes from the dark to the light side, which changed the way of handling the artificial light. The aforementioned solution combined with the photovoltaic and heating systems saved them 50 thousand reais per month in energy (about 130 thousand dollars). Can you imagine a building in Rio de Janeiro without air conditioning? We used to our advantage the sea breeze enabled by the correct orientation of buildings that are facing North and that receive the wind from the Southeast and the East transversally.  There is nothing like the sea breeze, Cenpes is located by the sea, so the rooms and spaces are pleasant ambiances, which is optimized by the thermo acoustic canopy protection. The spaces sheltered by the canopy also received a garden, helping the environment and adding to an excellent outcome. Users and visitors have considered it a fantastic solution. And they added: "It's mind blowing that a building of this importance can work without air conditioning under a 40 degrees heat in Rio de Janeiro.".
There is a new trend in São Paulo and other cities of using dark glass boxes. In these cases, we have a building with one good side - the South - and three bad ones; because the glass is not made to reduce the heat and the sunshine comes straight through it.  Besides, if there are computers in the building, it is necessary to have curtains, making it necessary to adopt artificial light and, since the casings do not open, the use of air conditioning is necessary for the entire day. The energy expenditure is enormous, which shows us how flawed this international model is. I mean, it works for countries such as the USA, since the solution is designed for temperatures ranging between 15, 20, 30 degrees bellow zero. I'm not against glass, on the contrary, it is excellent when there is shadow or when it is used combined with the shadowing from eaves or balconies, solutions that have become a tradition in Brazilian architecture. I designed all the circulations at Cenpes with balconies, because they work as a microclimate between the outside sunshine and the inside environment, gradually reducing the temperature. It?s an old solution that arose from our tradition as a tropical country. 

(Comments on Galeão Hospital and the vegetation niche (microclimates) to appease the temperature). 

Zanettini - It's what I always use. There is nothing better to shelter us from the sun than the shadow of a tree, since trees produce the proper microclimate with their shadowing.  It's the most complete brise soleil there is, since through it passes filtered light that cools the spaces it shadows. 

IPH Magazine - Now, just to polemicize a bit. The economic matter is always discussed, when you have meetings to design a hospital you must consider the cost of the project, the construction and the cost of the technology, which is bigger than the cost of the building. Roughly, the environmental cost is beginning to appear in the agenda with a little more consistency, since only few people actually consider the cost with air conditioning per month due to the overload of energy expenditure, natural resources...

Zanettini - In 40 years, maintenance and operation cost 4 times the amount spent with construction, which is an extremely important aspect in a hospital that demands ongoing maintenance. Not to mention the changes that may occur due to new needs that arise and new equipment, which require the use of horizontal and vertical shafts that can be accessed through a simple door instead of the break of a wall in order to work the installations. When old hospitals need a retrofit, we have to tear down walls, since everything is built-in.  When there is a proper place through where the entire net passes, the whole pipeline system is inside a cabinet, numbered and identified with a color and a label. I have just inaugurated a project at Rubem Berta, the Moriáh Hospital, everyone was ecstatic with the machinery room. 

IPH Magazine - One of the things discussed was the shape and function when designing a hospital. A hospital is much more about the function that must translate a program. You have pointed out that the patient's need must be considered, the ICU next to the X-ray unit and so on. How would it be to design a program considering this emergency?

Zanettini - It depends on the type of hospital. There is no standard project; there are technologies that can be used numerous times. We don't need to reinvent the wheel everyday. There are solutions already accomplished that are good and lasting. We don't need to be innovative in everything, only when it is convenient and when it is going to save us costs, energy and natural resources.
[...]

IPH Magazine - As a University professor and a practicing architect, how do you see the architect graduation (not only at USP)? You have already mentioned the need of integrating several disciplines. When do you believe would be the best moment to introduce hospital architecture or other subjects of such complexity? During college or further into the future? 

Zanettini - Considering the level of our university courses, I believe the design of a hospital is too complex, since the student only has a superficial understanding of everything. I was part of many end-of-course assessments and I had the chance to evaluate some students who were willing to design a hospital. Usually the level of difficulty is significant, because the student is clueless of its complexity. We must have a real greater understanding not only of architecture, but also of medical and technical issues; which includes responding to the needs of an ongoing transformation that is the 21st century. The equipments change and so do everything else related to it, like the way we work the surfaces, for an example, the protection against radiation that the project must consider. The conception is as important as the detail; the latter should be in service of the conception. The project is global and must be understood in a more integrated manner so it can be in service for longer. One very important topic is how long the building should last, which it should be 40 to 50 years with no need of significant modifications. The hospitals I built in the 1960's remain almost unaltered to this day. Nowadays we talk about considering a sustainable building, which all of my projects do. We are a poor country; we don't have money to waste or to build football stadiums like we are doing. An office from Rio de Janeiro asked me to analyze Manaus' stadium. They spent more than 1 billion reais (about 2,6 billion dollars) to work for a month and Manaus doesn't even have a football tradition. What are they going to do with that? Manaus already had a 17 thousand-seat stadium built by architect Severiano Porto that suited the city and didn't have a mislead budget. The problem is the corruption that runs this country, it is endemic, Brazilian politics is hell.  Then an outside entity finds a corrupt government and demands that we spread stadiums across the country, because it's interesting politically. Let's build stadium across Brazil with its continental dimension. Who is going to watch a match there after the World Cup? (laughing). The stadium was designed overseas and it used 40% more steel than necessary. We ended up with unnecessary constructions; meanwhile we need to invest in other areas in deep demand such as education and health. We need more doctors, so we import them from Cuba (laughing). The government should have invested here and encouraged students in their 3rd and 4th year of college who could go to the North and Northeast to do an internship and take care of the basic needs of the population; which is the greatest demand. Whenever a specialist is needed, the patient can be sent to a bigger unity, which is cheaper. Everything in Brazil is determined by our dreadful economic and political rulers. Everyone asks me why the buildings we need the most are not planned in the Brazilian construction industry. The reason is the addiction of deciding for the worst urbanistic solutions for the sake of a vote in the election, such as Minha Casa Minha Vida (a social welfare program that aims to make housing accessible for people with low income).  

IPH Magazine - But I think that our government is missing the big picture. Because a good hospital can also lead to a vote, better housing solutions will also lead to more votes than precarious ones.

Zanettini - Certainly, but when the poorest of the population are asked about their opinion on their house, they always say they think it's excellent. But they are used to living under overpasses. So their answer is a consequence of our cultural and economic poverty.

IPH Magazine - In your opinion, what is our biggest problem to face concerning hospital architecture in Brazil nowadays? Maybe, to broaden the discussion, you could focus on public health.

Zanettini - The core of the matter is cultural. The way I see it, only the civil society organized is able to develop a Project Brazil that could endure for generations to come with organized, developed and sustainable growth, rather than the usual mediocre plans put into practice at each administration designed by those assuming office at the time. This won't trigger the country growth, especially with PT carrying out actions to please those 40% of votes they need for the past 12 years. Everything is done to get votes, including the Bolsa Família (a social welfare program that provides financial aid to poor families), that is nothing more than a charity money used to keep population ignorant. How can a country develop when the population has to endure education and health of the lowest quality? The country is upside down. How can we change a country when the structure running it is rotten? It's impossible. Until the new generation takes over - which I don't believe it's going to happen this century - educated and guided by capable people who lead them to a long and structured future, I don't see a way out. Until then, they will continue to destroy our forests and plant soy across the country, perpetuating our condition of being a commodity exporter, which has been happening for 500 years. Our country began 500 years ago with the harmful extraction of pau-brasil, sugarcane, then gold and coffee and now ore. Vale do Rio Doce is a disaster, because it should be lapidating talents instead of exporting ore. Its solely activity is to make holes in Minas Gerais that no one takes care of and leave those huge craters abandoned. Is it architecture that needs to change? No, it's the whole country. The country needs to have a straight line where intelligence prevails gathering all the sciences to develop a country that possesses all that is good. No other country has the conditions that we do, and we are tearing it apart. We have destroyed the forests, our rivers are sumps and the air is polluted. We are making a real effort to destroy everything when it should be going the other direction. We were blessed with a country that has everything: water, sun, climate, forest, but we are destroying everything. Our cities are a mass of disorderly and unplanned constructions, there is no place to be, there are no public spaces in our cities. 
[...]
In every country you go in the world the river is the soul of the city, here it is a sump. Brazil is upside-down and it will take a long time to overcome it. How should we behave then? I try to be as righteous as possible and I have ethic and professional behavior. I have always been this way, so have Jarbas, Lelé and others I could list. We entered the contemporary era and they are still doing the modern architecture that died in the 1970's. Like Anatole Kopp wrote 50 years ago, the modern architecture is no longer a cause, it's now a style. 
[...]
We need to build a completely new cultural attitude. There must be a project for Brazil that doesn't rely on those running the country. 

IPH Magazine - I believe the main topics were discussed; we appreciate your availability and your honesty to answer the questions. 


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